By Barb Shelly, Kansas City Star editorial page columnist
News of Dr. George Tiller's death was only hours old last week when bloggers began asking the question: What kind of church accepts a doctor who performs abortions into its membership?
"I wonder what kind, if any, preaching against sin this church did since Tiller felt welcomed there," opined Blue Collar Todd, who declares on his blog that "liberalism, or sometimes called progressivism, is a false religion that stands in total antithesis to biblical Christianity."
Todd has already made up his mind, and so have others who called or e-mailed me this week to criticize a column I wrote describing the desperate circumstances that brought people to Wichita to obtain late-term abortions.
But I'll take a swing at the pitch anyway.
What kind of church would embrace George Tiller? A church that believes the creator endowed human beings with both conscience and intelligence, to enable us to wrestle with the complicated questions. A church that recognizes that one's relationship with that creator can't be dictated by a central authority, or proscribed by a narrow list of rules.
Tiller's church, Reformation Lutheran in Wichita, Kan., is one that trusts its members with the freedom to decide on matters of conscience. It holds that a choice made for good reasons and in good faith does not separate a human being from God.
Some call this "relativism," and blame it for a decline in morals and corruption of society.
I call it freedom. And, as with the right of a woman to decide on what terms to bring a child into the world, we should be vigilant against anyone or anything that would take it away.
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Woody backs terrorists!
This was not the first time Dr. Tiller was shot. His clinic was a target for violence and harassment for years. Who could be shocked that no other doctors are stepping in to fill his shoes? Terrorists, and their supporters, have won.
BigSteve
Wow, what backbone you show. Obviously no one could reopen the clinic, open a new one, or... The act of one lunatic or fringe group even and you give up. Obama even said he would instruct the federal marshals to help the "clinics". Don't remember him offering this to other murder victims or thier families. Once again this should never have been a federal issue. Read the constitution and the ruling that "created" the "right".
Remember he was not the only abortion clinic, just one of three that clearly by any standard murdered babies.
ah, a fanatic
can't reason w/ 'em, and can't live w/ 'em ('cause they'll shoot ya).
The terrorists have won
Congratulations.
Misuse of religion
Freedom is indeed a dangerous thing. It can lead to being the greatest nation or the worst, depending on the moral structure of the society. This lack of willingness to judge leads to failure, the allowing of one phylosiphy to judge leads to the same thing. There are basic tenents that must be followed, one of those being the sanctity of life. I have read the constitution and the Roe v. Wade ruling, it shows the problem with injecting the human emotion into law. I support neither a federal ban nor a guarentee, it has no business at that level.
Please note that Jesus preached to the sinners so they could give themselves to God and have everlasting life. Those who did not were condemed to hell. Anyone ever read how the Pharisees were delt with by Jesus? The belief in Jesus also comes with a second thing acknowledgment and regret for sins (you really cannot believe in Jesus without the later).
It's an interesting question
It's an interesting question to ask - what kind of church would aloow Tiller...
I have to say I agree with some of the people on here that I think ALL churches should allow ANY body access to thier church. Why not? It is what Jesus would do, we saw him consistently in the Gospels hanging out with both rich, poor, prostitutes, sick, homeless, etc... I think Tiller was openly welcome into the arms of Christ just like anyone else would have been throughout history. Leave it to humans, however, to judge what is right and wrong and say who should be allowed into the kingdom of heaven.
I have said it once and will say it again, the Bible explicitly states the way to heaven: through Christ. As long as Tiller believe din Jesus, he will be walking with him this very moment. Yes, he has to give an account for his life and his actions, but that is between him and God, not for us to decide.
As for abortion, I tend to want to steer clear of that time bomb, mainly because my views (as a Christian) tell me one thing, but my intellect tells me another. I see that all life is sacred, and that includes the life of a soon-to-be-mother as well. But who am I to decide who lives and dies? I guess that is why I never became an abortion doctor, a lawyer, or a politician.
However, the way the Star is propping this guy up like a saint in the eyes of all, practicing something that very few will practice, and trying to further their own agenda in light of his murder, makes just as sick as listening to the people who support the man who murdered Tiller (Roeder - spelling?).
Not just "believe in Jesus" . . . .
ModerateMouth---if John 3:16 were the only verse we had to lead us to salvation, one might indeed think believing in Jesus was all one must do to inherit eternal life. Be careful of that too simple view. Remember, even Satan "believes in Jesus," (he knows his Holy enemy is real)yet he will not go to heaven. Many lost folks only get part of the plan for salvation, and unfortunately, remain in a lost condition.
No Tiller Clinic.....
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D98N94SG0&show_article=1
Technically, darroby85,
Technically, darroby85, there is no membership in our church. If you come to our church and feel at home and continue coming, you're a member.
But you are absolutely right though. I do not think he would have been allowed to be an usher or hold any position in our church. And I'm sure our Pastor would have worked very hard for his salvation.
The very non-judgmental aspect of our church is what was so surprising to me when I first started to attend, but I have to admit of all of the sinners I have worshipped with each week, none that I know of was sinning quite the way Dr. Tiller was.
I think you guys have hit the nail on the head
There's a wide range of opinion among Christians on the abortion issue, and among particular denominations and particular churches.
JKD, would your pastor...
Have invited Tiller to become a MEMBER of the church, and allowed him to serve in the church, say as an usher, with the responsibilities that go with it? Or, would your pastor have allowed Tiller to attend your church, and have continued to minister to him and tried to get him to repent? There is a big difference there, but there are a lot of people who don't understand it.
All churches generally
All churches generally support the rights of the members to make their own decisions, right or wrong. One of the mainstays of the Christian faith (no matter the denomination) is that God gave all humans free will. They are not guided or controled by God to make perfect decisions. We are human and all have that right to screw-up, to sin, to royally make a mess of our lives. But at the same time we all have the right to accept those mistakes and ask for forgiveness of our God and ourselves.
To ask the question what kind of church would accept Dr. Tiller is a false one. ALL Churches would or at least should accept Dr. Tiller as they would accept Mother Theresa or a serial killer. No matter how "good" a human appears on the outside or how "bad" they appear on the outside we are all equally flawed but with the potential to be better. A church accepts all members knowing we are all sinners, of some degree, and all need to repent for our sins and seek our God's forgiveness.
On a side note about late term abortions. I have multiple family members and friends that are medical doctors. 3 are OB-Gyns. And all say there are actually nearly zero instances in which a late term abortion would be necessary to save the life of a mother. Abortions in the early stages that are of medical necessity usually revolve around ectopic pregnancies or other issues similar. Other than the mother contracting cancer, suffering uterian hemorrage or other issues inwhich the mother would need to immediately deliver to correct her problem there are few times when it would be necessary.
That said...let's all be honest about abortion. The overwhelming "need" for abortions in general are for borth control. Women got pregnant and dont want to be. And in the late term stages the overwhleming issues are that the child has some sort of abormality that the parents do not wish to face with a live birth.
Rape and incest pregnancies are very very rare.
So I could understand the abortion lobby's point of view if they stopped hiding around BS reasons such as health of the mother or rape and incest. Both of which are minute causes for abortion. Abortion is used mostly as birth control. If that is what you believe in, stand up for it and defend but dont wrap your issue around something else
That to me is just as bad as Bush wrapping the wars and everything he did militarily, financially, etc around 9-11.
Dr. Tiller would have been
Dr. Tiller would have been welcome in our church. The Pastor would have told the doctor from the very beginning that what he was doing was wrong, but our Pastor's theory is also that he can't help a sinner until he walks in the door.
Just because Jesus said, 'Go and sin no more' doesn't mean people quit sinning. If we could do that we would be as perfect as Jesus and that's not going to happen.
Freedom
"Tiller's church, Reformation Lutheran in Wichita, Kan., is one that trusts its members with the freedom to decide on matters of conscience."
So if one of its members told the congregation that he was thinking of killing someone, the church would merely say, "That's a matter of conscience. Make your own decision"?
Where's the moral clarity amongst those on the Star editorial board?
suncliff
"People who decry liberalism and religion haven't read the Gospels. Jesus associated with sinners, tax collectors and the poor and sick."
Yes, but he did tell them to "Sin no more." Apparently, you cherry-pick the Gospels.
Does anyone notice?
When you start reading threads on Monday that Interface always seems to have some kind of "argument" with a right winger that has a user name never seen here before?
Its like he just creates user names to give an extreme right wing view so he can have something to do. Or its just the guy in the cubicle next to him.
Marvelous Makeshift Morality
Really, this is marvelous: because anybody who wants to invent their own brand of madcap, makeshift, miniscule morality can use the same theory of conscience ("conscience=my preferences") which appears in this article.
The pregnant young woman who goes to the prom, gives birth in the restroom and leaves her baby in the trash bin? "I have my own conscience, my own intelligence. I wrestled with the issues..."
The man who plies an underage girl with drugs and alcohol amd then sexually violates her? "My relationship with my Creator can't be dictated by a central authority, or proscribed by a narrow list of rules."
The angry man who takes rifle in hand and blows an abortionist's brains out? "I made this choice for good reasons and in good faith ...I call it freedom."
Anybody can do anything, as long as they have the verbal glibness to present some sort of newspaper-ready rationale.
Such shallow thinking, Barb Shelley. You apparently can't even imagine seeing this from the victims' point of view. Probably because it's not your flesh on the blade of the knife.
Agreed, and you may have
Agreed, and you may have noticed how Barb, or her associates, just deleted my posts that blow holes in the whole pro-abortion belief system.
They can't have too much logic and sense brought in here, can they!
What kind of church accepts George Tiller?
A dead decaying one.
Revelation 3:1
'I know what you've been doing. You are known for being alive, but you are dead.
Revelation 3:15-16
15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
Jesus
PETA: can't kill fish but abortion is fine
Seriously - PETA is running ads against fishing because it hurts the fish, but I can guarantee that a lot of the weak minds in that organization support abortion rights.
http://www.fishinghurts.com/
In fact, this is from PETA's own site (I'll be damned - no jokes, please):
“Where does the animal rights movement stand on abortion?”
There are people on both sides of the abortion issue in the animal rights movement, just as there are people on both sides of animal rights issues in the pro-life movement. And just as the pro-life movement has no official position on animal rights, the animal rights movement has no official position on abortion.
So to those PETA members who do support abortion, a FISH has more rights than a human fetus.
I can't fathom those anti-rational minds.
p.s. I wonder if PETA would support aborting puppy and kitten fetuses? Just asking ...
<<<
Global warming is the new eugenics - its proponents are reality deniers <<<
and yet
To folks like Grinch and Tom, a fetus's rights would trump the rights of the actual person impacted by the growth of the fetus, no matter the negative health risks faced by that person.
They would have the woman die to save the fetus.
I find that incomprehensible and unethical.
Interface....
How dare you lie about what I said, taking advantages of the deletions this board made.
I NEVER said anything about ANYONE'S rights trumping anyone, you cowardly liar. I said I want to see the mother AND the baby live and be fine--I never said let any mother die.
I asked you to answer the simple question--why a 7 month delivered premature baby is a person and why a 7 month baby that has an umbilical chord and a wall of tissue around it classified by YOU as "potential person".
You refused to answer the question, then lie about what other people say, you coward.
Now, Tom
I NEVER said anything about ANYONE'S rights trumping anyone, you cowardly liar. I said I want to see the mother AND the baby live and be fine--I never said let any mother die.
And I never said "let any baby die" -- I merely said that the mother has the right to choose to protect her health, in response to your utterly asinine claim that there's never any medical justification for an abortion.
It's sickos like you who keep us from having reasonable legal restrictions on abortions passed, ones with an exemption for the health of the mother. By your slavish adherence to your own illogic, you actually prevent laws that might make abortion a more rare occurrence, because laws that lack the exemption for the mother's health do not pass constitutional muster and get overturned.
Stupidity.
More BS from "Interface"
I NEVER said anything about ANYONE'S rights trumping anyone, you cowardly liar. I said I want to see the mother AND the baby live and be fine--I never said let any mother die.
And I never said "let any baby die" -- I merely said that the mother has the right to choose to protect her health, in response to your utterly asinine claim that there's never any medical justification for an abortion.
It's sickos like you who keep us from having reasonable legal restrictions on abortions passed, ones with an exemption for the health of the mother. By your slavish adherence to your own illogic, you actually prevent laws that might make abortion a more rare occurrence, because laws that lack the exemption for the mother's health do not pass constitutional muster and get overturned.
Stupidity.
And you continue to lie. This converation was about LATE TERM abortions. I never said anything about any other type of abortion. Again, a liar.
I am sick because I don't like the idea of a "doctor" jamming a scissor device into a live baby's skull, a perfectly fine baby? And I am the one who is sick?
I know you had an abortion, pretty much convinced by your use of "us". And you would say anything to justify and assauge your guilt, even lie about what other people say and call THEM sickos. Projection, that is what that is called you sick person.
And again, refuse to answer the simple, logical question, because you can't.
nope
You said there's NEVER any medical justification for an abortion and said that the mother could always opt to have a C-section instead.
I disagreed. As I said, the mother has the right to choose to protect her health, in response to your utterly asinine claim that there's never any medical justification for an abortion.
Sorry, man, but you said what you said.
Tom, give it up
He has the "deflect" method down pat. He will not answer a simple question. That's not his style. He'll come back with a 500-word quote from Wiki or something.
On this blog, he reminds me of the troll living under the bridge jumping out every time someone attempts to cross.
Laughing
On this blog, he reminds me of the troll living under the bridge jumping out every time someone attempts to cross.
Tom Anderson
You're right, and notice his reply that YOU should know he "doesn't suffer fools" as if, well, we should ALL know his mighty reputation!
I thought until then he was a she, you know, the pasty faced, NOW marcher with carrying the "Keep Abortion Legal" signs. It's a guy? Combination? Trans-whatever? Who knows, but the person, whatever it is, is creepy.
And a coward.
twas knows
I don't suffer fools lightly.
You're the fool interface
I beat you with logic, and all you could do was lie, distort, and misreprsent. That is absolutely fine with me. You represent the leftist, abortion-loving, late term abortion loving crowd. You put Tiller on a pedastal.
You perfectly represent the reprehensible, and I don't have to lift a finger to expose you. The hilarious thing is, you don't even see it. You just think your smug, pat, BS answers have some credibility.
You wont't answer a simple question, because it destroys your platform. And everyone on this board, and everyone linking into this conversation, can see it.
The late-term abortionists don't have a leg to stand on, and you are a perfect representative for the empty, rhetoric-spewing, hate-spewing societal rejects that make up the crowd of infantcide practioners and their supporters.
there is a certain irony
that I'm sure isn't missed on most, in your accusing me of lying, distorting, and misrepresenting, given your painfully obvious lying, distorted, misrepresentation of my stated position.
[chuckle]
I expect no less from a tool such as yourself. Cheers, Tom -- if you think you've won a round tonight, then I'm sure you'll happily drift off to sleep whilst pleasuring yourself to thoughts of a murdered physician in Wichita.
Good night, you kook. ;-)
yep, go run away coward
Refuse to answer what you can't, then misrepresent me, then accuse me of the one doing the misrepresenting.
I don't wish any physician dead, but the murdering f*** that got killed last week I won't lose any sleep over. The kids he scheduled to kill this week might just live. I sleep well with that thought, you turd. See, that's the crazy thing about me, I care that children, and their moms, live--which I have clearly stated--regardless of your lies that I stated otherwise.
As long as you bring it up, where are all those folks on "your side", that certainly would see that I am distorting what you said. Hmmm, not a word from any of them. Maybe because everyone reading this can see quickly through your BS, you troll, and take everything you say as the useless drivel it is.
Sleep tight in your mom's basement in your sweaty pajamas, you douchebag.
Answer it, Interface you coward, answer it.
I asked you to answer the simple question--why a 7 month delivered premature baby is a person and why a 7 month baby that has an umbilical chord and a wall of tissue around it classified by YOU as "potential person".
"Go forth and sin no more..."
That's what Jesus lovingly said to a repentant sinner.
Tiller did elective abortions up to 26 weeks of age, according to his promotional literature. No medical reason whatsoever was required, only that the mother be mentally competent and in generally good health.
Yes, there are serious medical reasons which DEMAND the abortion of a pregnancy, and this fact has been recognized in the Bible for millennia, but will Tiller be able to stand before his Maker and say that every last one of the 60,000+ abortions he personally performed over the years fell into that category? I personally doubt it, but that's just me.
My son was a crisis pregnancy, in a nation where abortions outnumber live births. Jesus was a crisis pregnancy. Moses was a crisis pregnancy.
Ephesians 2:4 says, "God is rich in mercy." Should not Christians aspire also to become rich in mercy, especially towards the smallest of our human brethren?
"Freedom"
"Freedom" in God's terms, means one is free to accept or reject the "central authority" of Almighty God. One is free to sin or not sin.
Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
A church that quails at calling a sinner a sinner, for fear of impinging upon the choices that sinner made "for good reasons and in good faith" can not rightfully be called a "church," any more than a newborn lamb can be called a "shepherd."
"Love the sinner, but hate the sin" - did Tiller know that his fellow Christians loved him but hated his sin? Did he even consider that brutally killing 60,000 unborn babies might be a sin in the eyes of the Almighty? Did anyone at the church even suggest that it might be?
Or did they just gloss over Matthew 25:40 and Jeremiah 1:5 for fear of offending him?
seems to me that
you have trouble thinking for yourself, mvpel.
I believe that Jesus would have loved Tiller just as he would have had compassion for Tiller's deranged murderer, but he would certainly have accepted the necessity of Tiller's mission as a medical provider, providing a heart-wrenching but necessary procedure to often heartbroken individuals.
People don't have late-term abortions lightly -- they do so either because medical circumstances have put the life of the mother in danger, because the fetus did not develop properly and would not be viable, or because the mother is a young child impregnated via rape.
I wonder that you and those like you are so blind.
Nice Try Barb
As expected Barb, you proved your ignorance by not even aswering your own question. You did not name a church that would accept Tiller, but instead, you made up a hypothetical church that only a liberal, anti-morals person would attend. At least we did not have to hear about your life partner and how Kansas City should embrace same sex marriages.
A good church does not exclude
I would have to agree with Barb on this one. Jesus has always taught us to love the sinner. The greatest outcome for Dr. Tiller would have been for him to repent and change and to make peace with God. His church ensured that he would be closer to God and thereby have a better opportunity to fulfil this destiny.
Sadly, he will never have this chance as his life was taken by someone who, although he had morality on his side, acted without sanction from either God or Man.
At this point, Mr. Roeder has only one positive outcome and ironically it is the same as Dr. Tiller had. In addition, he has made a choice and violated Society's laws and if he is deemed to be competent, deserves death.
As a competent adult, he understood Society's laws and he understood the consequences of his actions. This is in contrast to the unborn who have no choice or standing with regard to their fate under the current law.
No pithy semantics will ever make abortion something that it isn't. It will always be equivalent to murder whether the legalise say it so or not.
repent?
For what? Providing medical services to those who have no alternative? You have to remember, this guy wasn't just providing slice and dice to ditzy cheerleaders using abortion as birth control -- he was ministering to the couples who faced serious and life-threatening medical complications if the fetus were to be carried to term.
Until you recognize that fact, then you are little better than any of the other extremists who referred to this man as "Tiller the Killer" and other hate-filled epithets.
Examples
Will Rogers is still famous for saying "I only know what I read in the newspaper" and "I never met a man I didn't like." He was killed in 1935 with pilot Wiley Post when their plane crashed in Alaska.
I grew up thinking Will Rogers was and is a good example for all of us. He was capable of putting aside bias and finding something good in every man he ever met.
"There are good examples and bad examples the trick is to know the difference."
A quote from my friend J. R. Miller.
Church acceptance of Dr. Tiller
People who decry liberalism and religion haven't read the Gospels. Jesus associated with sinners, tax collectors and the poor and sick. He criticized the religious zealots who were concerned only with the letter of the law. He broke Sabbath rules and regulations. He was a rebel, and he was a liberal!
Thank you for saying so
Thank you for saying so eloquently what I have been thinking as I listen to people condemn Dr Tiller and his church. I appreciate your voice of reason.
Agree
I agree with you 100% Barb. Right on!
Agree
I agree with you 100% Barb. Right on!