Is Barney Frank on GM's board?

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Most people wanted to see him retired, lol. There is no way Detroit is going to win except by aem outsourcing.

Current GM and Chrysler owners - that's something I bet you didn't know (well, I didn't, but thankfully I don't own one). This of course wouldn't apply to cars sold from the new, gubmint/union-controlled fiefdoms.

http://www.kansascity.com/637/story/1249753.html

Consumer groups point to another problem: Potentially 30 million GM vehicles and 10 million Chrysler cars built before the bankruptcies remain on the road, and the automakers won’t be responsible for safety problems in the future.

It occurs to me that this is another perfectly valid reason to stay away from these cars - forget the warranty issues or how close the remaining dealers are to your home: I'd hate to drive a car where (for example) a fuel tank defect caused it to blow up and cripple me for life, and then be legally unable to recover a dime from the company responsible for it. I suppose this means one of 2 things - either there's more room under Obama's bus than I've suspected OR the gubmint didn't care. Either way, I suspect the gubmint is going to have another mini-bailout/payoff on its hands. I understand that this is the normal result of any bankruptcy, so I'm not whining about it, just pointing out that the UAW did darned well for itself while litigants were left out to dry.

If the gubmint does't make some sort of fund available to cover lawsuits, and then word of this gets around, what do you think THAT will do to the resale value of used GM and Chrysler cars? Also, let's say you're now thinking of buying a car from one of the 'new' GM or Chyrsler companies - since their chance of another bankruptcy is decent, wouldn't you feel pretty dumb to buy one, watch them go bankrupt and then end up like the others?

That's right - a local Chrysler dealership employee, whose dealership was axed - I guess the blowback isn't limited to just those of us who don't want to support fascism:

http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/1243678.html

"Ray Sauvain stoked the grill in a back garage, away from the driving rain, to cook farewell brats for his fellow employees. Prospects for finding new work did not thrill Sauvain, who for seven years was quality-control inspector and dispatcher for Jack Miller Chrysler Jeep (local Northland dealer).

With three Chryslers at home, though, he vows never to buy another because the corporation let his compatriots down."

It will never end, of course.

Note: after I posted this, I spotted the following new article that goes to my point above - lol - naturally, a Republican is involved with the Dems on this one (remember, I am a conservative, not a Republican, whatever that actually is anymore):

"Senate Renews Push to Expand Homebuyer Tax Credit to $15,000"

(Grinch: I'll bet those suckers who bit on the first $8K offer are pissed! I also bet this will freeze action on that offer until this one is settled - also, why would they need to expand it if the first brilliant Obama plan is working??? No, it's not working???)

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=alfbV3LXPE_E

Auto supplier article:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aoeQgLLdZwlI

Excerpts:

New aid would expand on $5 billion in Treasury loans and guarantees. Tight credit and plant shutdowns by General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC added to the strain on suppliers after a 37 percent drop in U.S. auto sales through May, the groups said.

“The aid provided to suppliers in March addressed only a finite set of issues,” MEMA Chief Executive Officer Bob McKenna said. “The crisis suppliers are facing has only grown worse since that time, and the industry remains on the verge of collapse.”

The “most optimistic” estimate of the need for new assistance is for $8 billion to $10 billion, the partsmaker trade groups said. Their announcement confirmed OESA’s comments this week about its plans for the aid appeal.

If I go to a car dealer and negotiate a deal for a car and I later realize that I paid too much, whose fault is it that I paid too much? Mine or the car dealer's? It's my own darned fault. Same logic applies here. GM signed contracts with UAW in which GM agreed to pay more than it could afford. Blaming UAW for GM's stupidity is like me blaming the car dealer because I agreed to pay too much. It's not the UAW's fault that GM agreed to a bad contract. The UAW was being a good capitalist.

Here are few primers on bankruptcy law:

(a) most bonds are debentures that aren't secured at all. These are the equivalent of IOUs, nothing more -- See "General Unsecured Allowed Claims" at http://www.lawdog.com/bkrcy/lib2a8.htm.

(b) For "secured bonds," in case of default, the bondholder is entitled to foreclose on the collateral that secures the bond. They have the right to sell off the collateral regardless of the bankruptcy filing. However, what is the collateral? In this case, it's likely to be a shuttered auto plant, but what is the auto plant worth without a company to run it? Darned near zero, I'd guess.

I'd also guess that all the other creditors know that 98% of the "secured bondholders" claims are actually unsecured. Note from my source that "contributions to an employee benefit plan" are priority claims ahead of unsecured creditors. That's the UAW's leverage. I suspect the UAW and other creditors are simply giving the "secured bondholders" the right to be treated according to their actual secured value. I suspect the bondholders don't really want to go outside bankruptcy and take over a shuttered auto plant (would you?), and instead are just using the public forum to try to improve their negotiating position within the bankruptcy itself. They're doing a good job -- they have you people are falling for it hook, line, and sinker even though NONE of us know the facts.

"Think what you could do with all that extra money..."

I already know what Obama is going to make me do with it - tax it and pay for someone elses healthcare, retirement, and benefits.

cleverdude.com is where you get your 'facts' from? Wow... almost as good as Wikipedia.

Sure, the government paying for healthcare and retirment benefits woul dmake cars cheaper in the US, sure, I will concede that point. But then how does one pay for that? I will tell you, it is through taxation. I guess cutting the costs of cars by $1,500 per car, which most people drive for 2-3 years, but then taxing us won't hurt the people/economy?

If you assume 400,000 automotive retirees at a cost $1,500 per worker for healthcare/retirement, that translates to $600,000,000 per year for just autoworker retirees. How does the government get that money?? What programs do you suggest the government should cut? How does the government get this money, and from who? Why do I need to pay for the autoworkers retirement? What did they provide to me as service? Make a car? What about my retirement and healthcare benefits? Who does that come from? Lots of questions left unaswered.

Kcgrh and Grinch, why do you hate American workers?

June 10, 2009

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/06/the_ethical_case_for_boycottin_1.html

Excerpts:

Consider first the facts. In these two cases, rather than let the free market and the legal system (specifically, the bankruptcy court) handle the reorganization of the failing auto makers in the normal way, the Obama administration spent tens of billions in taxpayers' dollars to take control of the companies and force the outcome it wanted. Obama, who received millions in contributions from the United Auto Workers union, has forced a settlement that will give UAW far more equity in the companies when they come out of bankruptcy than it was due compared to the secured debt holders.[i] Obama's agents used threats and intimidation (calling holdout bondholders speculators and hedge funds at one point) to get the creditors to accept being shafted. (WSJ.com 5/11/09)The result is that the vast majority of the two companies will be almost clearly owned by the federal government and the UAW, and the UAW arguably controls the federal government.

The result is drenched in irony. The UAW was a major reason why the companies hit the wall, and now the UAW will be rewarded with major control and ownership. It is as if a rape victim were forced to marry her rapist. The result makes the crony capitalism we saw in Russia look clean by comparison; it, at least, was a kind of capitalism.

This situation is ethically repugnant form every perspective. Consider the facts from the (A) rights perspective. The secured creditors' rights to a just settlement have been completely violated. And these bondholders, despite the defamation of Obama and his myrmidons, are not just soulless capitalist speculators. They include regular folk, yes, and even some even blue collar workers, who held these assets as part of their retirement portfolios. (WSJ.com 5/27/09). It also included teacher and police pension funds, and state infrastructure construction funds. (WSJ.com 5/21/09)

The rights of all the stakeholders at the competing car companies have been violated as well. Their workers, stockholders, and managers will now be compelled to pay taxes that will fund their competitors. Consumers of other car companies will wind up paying taxes to build the very cars they chose not to buy. And taxpayers with no health insurance will pay to maintain the sweet health benefits of UAW members.

You just can't make this stuff up. We've been told time and again how complicated the car industry is, so at the most crucial time in GM's history they bring in a phone expert.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aQ._YJhEj_Jo

Oh, and I'm sorry I was right about Ginsburg to a point, but I still don't know exactly what happened that led to the unsigned opinion (lot of guts there, huh?) that denied the petitioners' claim and allowed the Chrysler sale to go through. I'm done with that company and the only interest I now have is to be sure in the future which cars are made from their corpse so I can be sure never to buy one (the UAW and Obama screwed the bondholders, the shareholders, 1/4th of the dealers and the taxpayer, and are trying to attach the costs of current product-based lawsuits onto the part of Chyrsler that Fiat isn't taking over so they can get rid of their obligations - oh yeah, THAT'S an ethical company I want to do business with).

A large franchise does, anyway - people are getting fed up and they're starting to push back ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/05/burger-king-global-warming-us

Also, "Global warming? Not so fast, skeptics say at meeting" ...

http://hamptonroads.com.nyud.net/2009/06/global-warming-not-so-fast-skeptics-say-meeting

<<<
Global warming is the new eugenics - its proponents are reality deniers <<<

Zero emissions (except an occasional puff of methane), requires lots of exercise (health benefits), and already in production (requires no bailout) ... if Fiat won't make it, maybe GM will ...

"A classic toy car is being inducted into an auto museum in Cleveland - and it outsold every other car in the U.S. in 2008.

The Cozy Coupe, a plastic cherry-red sports car, allows toddlers to sit on a bench-style seat and poke their legs through to the ground. When they start walking, the car begins to go."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,525318,00.html

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aqiTT6yxgHSE&refer=worldwide

I don't see this liberal judge (hey, even the LA Times had to tell the truth on this: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/02/ginsburg-cancer.html) accepting the Chrysler bondholders' request for an SC hearing by the Monday deadline. Of course, odder things have happened, like for instance listening to Obama and Congress excoriate the corporate use of private jets by the automakers because it was an abuse of TARP tax dollars and then seeing Obama use 3 jets and a helicopter to have a 'date night' out on the town last week in NYC at a minimum cost of over $24,000. You remember NYC, right? That's where some weeks ago Obama's White House staffers scared the hell out of thousands of people by flying a jumbo jet around Manhattan with a military escort, spending over $300,000, just to get a photo op.

Better clear some of the bodies from under Obama's bus because he's going to need more room for the bondholders after Monday.

<<<
Global warming is the new eugenics - its proponents are reality deniers <<<

I hear a lot of political talk on both side of plant closing issue. Nobody unless you're just plan cool hearted wants a large business closed that employees a lot of local people.
My local car dealer where I just bought a car a few weeks ago and is warranted has been given notice of closing. It's being appealed, but it looks like it's going to happen. So I'm out raising hell like anyone else, to anyone who will listen.

I hear a lot of political talk on both side of plant closing issue. Nobody unless you're just plan cool hearted wants a large business closed that employees a lot of local people.
My local car dealer where I just bought a car a few weeks ago and is warranted has been given notice of closing. It's being appealed, but it looks like it's going to happen. So I'm out raising hell like anyone else, to anyone who will listen.

Into lexicography fails to change the definition of the word fascism. Who knew it was the same thing as liberalism?

(Barney Frank is an 'easy target' because he shares a lot of responsibility for allowing the housing bubble to form, blocking reform attempts for Freddie and Fannie at every turn)

We're not all in this together - some people like myself never had unmanageable debt, lied on their mortgage applications or bought homes they could not reasonably afford, foolishly over allocated their life savings in stock when they were approaching retirement, thought that the housing market would always go up, took large home equity loans and spent it on vacations and plasma TVs, ran up huge credit card balances not because of hardship but because they had no intention of paying it back (or simply cannot handle credit properly) and it was so easy to get, failed to save substantially for lean times, blindly believed the blather coming from the government on how the crisis was contained to the sub-prime mortgages and so did nothing, and expected everyone else to help them avoid reality when the bubble burst.

Neither I nor people like me did a damn thing irresponsible, we worked hard, we saved a lot of money, a lot of us paid off our mortgages instead of speculating in the markets or on a bigger house, we drove a cars for many years rather than trade it in every 2 years, we didn't buy all the crap we could have because to us financial security and the ability to sleep well at night were primary, knowing we and our families would make it through a recession/depression. And now the wolf is at our doors, howling that we must share our savings so he doesn't have to be accountable.

What the wolf is doing is re-inflating the bubble, albeit slowly. It cannot work because the fundamental principle of taking money out of your right pocket (taxes) and putting it in your left pocket (stimulus) doesn't create wealth. Sure, it will make those connected wealthy, and help smooth out the pain, but when it's all over the bill will be due and you are not going to like what those increased taxes are going to do to your standard of living and this economy.

GM and Chrysler are perfect examples of this attempted smoothing - taking tens of billions of dollars to prop up failed companies, which penalizes those prudent enough like Ford and some foreign automakers who planned far enough ahead to weather the storm better. The wolf has turned common sense inside-out: the incompetent, dishonest and inefficient are now rewarded at the expense of the competent, honest and efficient producers. That corporate welfare hurts the good companies since the wolf will favor the welfare recipients, using the line "we've got to protect the taxpayers' money'. Hey, if you wanted to do that, you shouldn't have put it in losers in the first place!

Barney Frank is just the tip of a power-corrupted, reality-denying pack of hyenas that are ignoring the American people (67% against these auto bailouts in a recent poll) and are embarking on a path to fascism, where the state controls the economy and businesses. Barney was a leading cause of this housing bubble as were others, but very few have actually admitted it and taken responsibility for it. To the contrary, they are pursuing policies to re-inflate the bubble: one pseudo-arm of the government (The Fed) is buying government debt from another (Treasury) to artificially lower mortgage rates to stimulate house-buying and refinancing, additionally now advancing $8,000 for 'first-time' homebuyers to buy a new house. Why advancing and not just a tax credit? Because a lot of would-be homebuyers can't afford the down payment, so the government is fronting them OUR money!!! If they can't afford the down payment, then what the hell are they doing buying a house???? Think about this - with so many people refinancing at lower rates, and some people buying homes at the lower rates, what do you think will happen a few years down the road if high inflation does become a problem? Let's say you took out a 30 year fixed mortgage for $150,000 at 5% - your monthly payments would be about $805. Four years later, mortgages are now offered at 8% - to get the same mortgage, you'd now have to pay $1,100 per month, almost $300 more than before. That could be a significant barrier to selling homes - those with low interest mortgages either may not be able to move or don't want to pay the higher payment, and how do you think THAT will affect the market?

It's like drilling holes in your sinking ship so you can let the water out faster. It’s madness.

--> Global warming is the new eugenics - its proponents are reality deniers <--

Can do for GM what he did for Fannie and Freddie.

Barney Frank makes an easy target; but this is a systemic problem in Congress. Remember how all the Reps and Senators howl whenever the military wants to improve itself by closing unnecessary bases or canceling weapons contracts we no longer need. “Good of the Nation be damned, these are jobs in my district/state.”

They never actually say it that way, of course; they say, as Franks did here that they discussed the base’s/contract’s value with the Defense Secretary.

If your point is that Obama should try to insulate GM from this kind of influence or that Franks or any other member of Congress should be held up to public ridicule when they try to exert this kind of pressure; I’m with you. Of courses, when our Senator or Rep is saving our plant it may seem less reprehensible. I am also with you if you say we should get out of GM as soon as practical.

If, on the other hand, your point is that we should have just let GM walk the way to dusty death; well, you lose me there.

I think Obama had a menu of unpleasant options to choose from. Any choice, including not choosing, had consequences.

He chose one.

Hope he was right.

Hope we can manage the consequences.

The sooner these 2 businesses disappear the better. We now have 2 more suckers of the government teat. More change we can believe in from the big 0, Harry and Nancy...

17 months to a return of sanity.

!