By Barb Shelly, Kansas City Star editorial page columnist
There have been occasions on which Israel has been properly condemned for overly aggressive tactics toward the Palestinian state and people. This is not one of those occasions.
Jeff Robbins, a US delegate to the United Nations Human Rights Commission during the Clinton administration, makes important points in an essay in today's Boston Globe:
1)Hamas has launched approximately 3,000 rockets and mortar attacks at Israeli civilian centers this year alone.
2)Hamas finds it acceptable to recruit young Palestinians to wire themselves with explosives and kill both themselves and Israeli civilians.
3)Hamas uses Palestinian civilians as human shields.
The loss of civilian life in the current Middle East warfare is to be deplored. But blame for it must be laid at the feet of Hamas, not Israel.
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The Only-est Thing is Religion
In 1948 the Palestinians objected to side-by-side separate states with Jerusalem being an "international city."
Okay, so the concept of an "international city" did have its problems. Vienna got out of it, Berlin got messy. But in 1948 it seemed to be an option.
What's happened for 60 years now is any time one side or the other perceives a strategic (or even tactical) advantage, either would refuse to compromise.
A pox on both their houses.
Through an accident of history (or God's will; whatever) Jerusalem is a sacred city for Jews, Muslims, and Christians. There's no logical reason any of those sects would willingly destroy it. The Wailing Wall, the Dome of the Rock, the Church of the Holy Sepulcher... all are immune from destruction because of religious bias.
Iran isn't gonna nuke Jerusalem. Nor are the Christians (except for the Rapture-Ready who'd just love a nuclear holocaust so they can welcome Jesus back to earth).
But maybe we need someone to call the bluff of the Muslims, the Zionists, and the Twice-Born: let everyone know we're determined to solve the Israeli/Palestinian problem once and for all. A real King Solomon split-the-baby moment:
Announce we'll evacuate everyone in the region prior to a thermonuclear device exploding halfway (within a half block) between the Wailing Wall and the Dome of the Rock, reducing everything there to a lump of radioactive glass.
Or, as an alternative, agree that Jerusalem is truly an international (and interfaith) city; divvy up the suburbs for Muslims and Jews and whomever, and get on with more important stuff than devotion to a narrow perception of "God."
I do not condone any of them apop
I find nothing meritorious in Israel's actions in any of the three links you posted. I find the children's bomb signings uniquely disturbing. Still, it is interesting that you must go back 41 years to validate 3 examples, while I could likely go back three months to cite 30 on the opposite side.
The region has spawned partisan violence for at least a couple thousand years which is exactly what the creation of the state of Israel was designed to put an end to.
The history since 47/48 suggests that the Israeli's have continuously attempted to live in peace while suffering neverending attacks from arab states and terrorist factions, many of whom refuse to acknowledge that Israel has a right to even exist.
My view remains that Israel is the victim here of Hamas' actions .....just as are the peaceful palestinian christians, muslims and jews in Gaza. Since you are of the "UN loveing left" it would seem that you too should acknowledge Israels right to exist and to condemn the 50 years of arab sponsored terrorism and war against the nation state of Israel.
I want us out of the entire region
The region has spawned partisan violence for at least a couple thousand years which is exactly what the creation of the state of Israel was designed to put an end to.
The history since 47/48 suggests that the Israeli's have continuously attempted to live in peace while suffering neverending attacks from arab states and terrorist factions, many of whom refuse to acknowledge that Israel has a right to even exist.
My view remains that Israel is the victim here of Hamas' actions .....just as are the peaceful palestinian christians, muslims and jews in Gaza. Since you are of the "UN loveing left" it would seem that you too should acknowledge Israels right to exist and to condemn the 50 years of arab sponsored terrorism and war against the nation state of Israel.
Actually I don't acknowledge Israel's right to steal land. It was wrong in 1948 and Israel has continued to steal more and more land since then. Would you be willing to give up your land because the UN thinks it is okay? Didn't think so.
I favor the US getting out of the mideast entirely. As you said, this is a long struggle and our involvement has obviously not solved a thing. It can be argued that it has caused us harm. But since we give Israel several million dollars every day, I do believe that gives US citizens the right to speak out against how Israel spends this money.
And no, they have not just sat there peacefully while dodging Arab aggressors. Do some research. Just this week, the Israelis have avenged the deaths of a few by killing over 300 Palestinians. Is that okay?
Apop - It is okay
Do you think the U.S. worried about keeping a tally after Pearl Harbor? You attack the enemy, and try to prevent another attack by making the enemy realize that their attacks are hurting them. Yes, Israel should stop soon, but I have no problem with their response not being tit-for-tat. That would just lead to other attacks. I really have no sympathy for the Gazans. They knew well they were putting a terrorist organization in power when they elected them. But they did it anyway. I think everyone knew that there would be a showdown.
Christlike compassion, or lack thereof.
How Christlike of you.
But how do you feel about our tax dollars flowing into Israel's defense coffers, hmm?
Interface - it's probably cheaper security
If Israel wasn't there with the ability to lookout for our interests, we'd have to do it. And they are there on the ground, so it's probably cheaper. Hey, if we were energy independent, maybe I'd think otherwise, but leave a bunch of warlording Arabs in charge, and there would be chaos, and oil would not flow. And when you start your car today, remember we are dependent, like it or not.
If Israel wasn't there
If Israel wasn't there the Palestinians wouldn't have had their land stolen from them. They wouldn't be dodging bombs signed by Israeli kids. And millions of them would not have been murdered by the Israelis.
And if you honestly believe the Arabs would ever keep that oil from flowing, I have some ocean front property in Missouri to sell you.
Chazzy, you're rewriting history
Yeah, that worked well.
A flip side is that the history since the forced relocation of well over half a million Palestinian Arabs from their homeland in 47/48 suggests that the resentment and anger at the violent loss of their land has yet to subside.
It's difficult for me to see Israel as a victim of anyone's actions but its own in rejecting the formation of a single Palestinian state to be shared by Arabs and Jews some six decades ago, and opting for violent segregation and apartheid over the possibility of peaceful cohabitation.
I have no idea what the solution is, but I fail to see how backing Israel in its every move is even remotely in our national interest.
arguing silly factoids
Palestine has been ruled through the ages by a veritable plethora of factions.....from the Romans to the Ottoman Empire to Britain with many others between those three.
When the UN ceded What became Israel to the Jews in 47/48 it would seem to have aettled ownership authority from that point forward.
Since the creation of Israel, they have been attacked with amazing frequency by arab states and factions. They have continually defended their land successfully against all comers.
Israel has never ....not once, to my knowledge ....declined to participate in peace talks .....nor have they ever been the protaganist of first strike.
They have been forced to live in a military state by those who ceaselessly insist that they have no right to exist.
Accepting all of that, it is difficult to understand how any rational thinker could be critical of Israel for responding to the repeated rocket attacks that Hamas launched at the conclusion of the negotiated cease fire which Hamas alone refused to renew.
I frankly hope they entirely destroy the Hamas infrastructure.
Not the point, is it?
Yeah, but we're not talking 2,000 years ago, are we?
We're talking about the history of the past 50-100 years, and how the forced displacement of the Palestinian natives has by the immigrant Zionists led to the current situation.
It's odd that we are bankrolling the Israeli military force, given that it has a negative impact on our own national interests.
Chazzykc - I'll second that
And that in itself will draw out the liberals who feel sorry for the terrorists. You see, chazzykc, you, me, nukman, kcgrh and others seem to draw out the libs. If we are for something, then they must be against it. So come one, come all - and let's hear you justify Hamas against evil Israel.
And just who are the terrorists?
It's actually more interesting to hear you Israel defenders justify the Israelis having their children sign bombs before they are launched into Palestine, build gates around Palestinian communities which prevent the residents from entering or leaving, starving the Palestinians, bulldozing their homes WHILE THE PEOPLE ARE STILL INSIDE, stealing their land and many many other atrocities.
Please continue defending this barbaric behavior. And let's not forget whose land this was for thousands of years before it was just given to Israel.
Oh there is this too. I take it you condone the Israeli attack on a US vessel.
http://www.gtr5.com/
More links for you:
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml
http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/07/17/photo-of-the-day-israeli-kids-sends-gifts-of-love-to-arab-kids/
Apop - I don't need your links
I knew you'd come out of the woodwork for Hamas. You didn't disappoint. Who are the terrorists? HAMAS, HEZBOLLAH (and the countries that sponsor them Syria & Iran). You won't convince me otherwise. I will ask you a question - can you name any time that Israel attacked Hamas without provocation?
Show me where I support Hamas
Maybe you need to read my post again. I am condemning Israel for its barbaric behavior for 60 years. I also despise the fact that my tax dollars fund the Israeli military.
But I won't try to convince you otherwise. I knew that was a lost cause a long time ago.
That's fairly clear
It's telling how you interpret criticism of Israeli policy as "support for Hamas."
Twas
I know you are not holding your breath for a reply from apop on unprovoked Israeli attacks, because as you & I both know, the answer is none.
Peanut gallery,
Wrong once again I see.
Common Sense
As to Israel's surgical attacks on Hamas, the only logical response to attacks by mad dogs is to kill them, and only a fool would feel any grief for the terrorists. They have no more concern for the lives or living conditions of their own people than they do for the Israelis. Human Rights Watch says people who attack civilian populations, as Hamas has done with rockets, commit war crimes, but the UN, etc., do not attempt to force Hamas to stop, or arrest any of their leaders for war crimes. Israel is fully justified, and to be commended, for defending it's citizens. Killing Hamas and their supporters improves the gene pool.
Interface, I give up, you
Interface, I give up, you are just too much of a Nazi to quit hating Jews and learn the truth.
Nukman
You're just stupid, man.
Interface, leave it to the
Interface, leave it to the narrow minded to focus on the typo and not the content. Of course it's only natural since you haven't the wit to address the truth.
Another Article Supporting Barb
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MWI1MGU5MTZhNGUwMzUxYzYzMTZmNDIxMzgwMzNmMGY=
Interface, you are right
Interface, you are right "you can't fix dumb" and you should knoe, since you are broken beyond repair. Your tirade reads like a Hitler speach.
Have you ever heard of a sabra, that's a native jewish resident of Palestine. They outnumbered tha moslem Palestinians prior to the etablishment of Israel.
The present conflict in this part of the middle east was started by non-native moslem leaders in bloody attacks on peaceful jewish settlements which have continued until today.
When a mad dog attacks youor yours, you shoot it.
Nukman, you're stupid.
I mean, jeez. Are you going to argue the Earth is flat, too?
in 1880, there were 24,000 Jews and 525,000 non-Jews in Palestine.
With the advent of Zionism, leading to large-scale European emigration to Palestine, by 1915, there were 87,500 Jews to 590,000 non-Jews in Palestine.
By 1947, the Jewish population had ballooned to 630,000 to 1.3 million non-Jews.
In 1948, the Jewish population, refusing to share Palestine in one state with the Arab natives, launched an offensive that led to the forced relocation of over 700,000 Arab Palestinians.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Zionism
you can't fix dumb.
[chuckle]
Sorry, but that was amusing. Thanks for the laugh, Nukman.
Palestinians should thank
Palestinians should thank God for America. Because if America ever unhooked the leash on Israel...most of the middle east and especially "Palestinian" areas would be large parking lots.
Israel and American interests
I'm still at a loss why we are paying Israel $30 billion in military aid to run its wars, particularly since it doesn't seem to realize that we have a "leash" on it.
Maybe Interface....
We are "paying" Israel $30B per year, a figure which I can neither confirm nor deny, because they are at the forefront of Islamofacist terrorism and they have a RIGHT to live despite what the IF's say.
I, like an earlier writer, do not know why we don't just turn Israel loose and let them solve the problem. The rest of the Arab world apparently doesn't want the problem solved since all they do is continue to support the terrorists.
ya can't fix dumb.
of course, because that involves facts, with which you have a documented problem.
A little research (google is our friend):
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/17/world/middleeast/17israel.html
ironic quote from the article:
"Israel and the United States signed a deal on Thursday to give Israel $30 billion in military aid over the next decade in what officials called a long-term investment in peace."
Again, you seem to be assuming that Israel even thinks it's on any sort of leash. It's not like we even put conditions on the U.S. tax dollars we fork over to them, and it's certainly suspect to think that Israel's actions are in our national security interests.
As far as "Islamofascism" goes, you're stupid if you believe the century-long land struggle between the Palestinian natives and the immigrants who formed Israel is about religion -- it's about land. Both sides are guilty of terror and both have bloody, bloody hands. That's another reason why we, the U.S., have no siginficant interest in siding with either camp in this ongoing conflict. Both sides are at fault, and we simply stoke the flames by supporting either to the exclusion of the other.
But then, as I've noted before with regard to you, ya can't fix dumb.
Agree.
I couldn't agree more.
You got it right!
You nailed it, Barb.