Arabs, thrown shoes and Bush's legacy of failure

Fair enough,but the hatred and resulting act of "offense" just doesn't seem like an act that is motivated by a people who want a democratic govt. assignment | assignments | assignment writing | buy assignment |
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If i disagreed and felt guilty i would say the same.

And an excellent nonsensical post yourself, "ursalt."

Historian2 excellent sandbagging. However when you struggle to hit at since hit at total sense. Please in your rampage do not forget the over 40 million unborn humans killed by the so called radaclizedmoderates of the Democratic Party.

Perhaps he wasn't protesting democracy so much as how ineptly the U.S. has "promoted" it, with a huge number of civilian casualties that have resulted from our invasion and occupation of the country.

One wonders if he would have felt differently had Bush ever exhibited the capacity to admit that we've had some serious errors in how we've proceeded.

It's fine and good to say that "to make an omlet you've got to break a few eggs," but it's not really that hard to understand someone's anger and disgust when those "broken eggs" are innocent lives whose deaths we could have avoided had we planned better.

This miscreant would have had a half-life of 2 minutes had he done the same to Saddam Hussein.

Iraq is typical of those countries in that no matter how much you improve their world, they always feel that their way is better.
Unfortunately, in the starving nations, birth control is never a part of their way nor will they accept it from foreigners. So we are forced to keep shipping food and watching the dictators rip it off and use it for personal gain while the ones in need starve.
Igrates, to a man, they are. Democracy is trumped by tradition.

You will no argument from me there. But if you read the links I provided, my orignal question from you was is why I think he is a linger idealist from the old regime- not whether or not the US is approved of or supported by the Iraqi people.
My sentence above merely attempted to compare the kind of oppression the Iraqi people had prior to the US involvment however, the numbers of Iraqi people who were killed by Hussein will probably not be truly known. I see the stats of the Iraqi casualties for the war and I find it sad and regretful.

Yael, while I don't expect the sensored Mainstream media fed american public to fully understand the number of Iraqi men, women and children killed in this conflict (1.5 milion) because they haven't been told and it's not their own family members. They can't relate to what it feels like to have basic services like water or lights destroyed as a result of the forceful removal of a Brutal leader or innocent civilians suffering as a result, afterall Bush, or any slave owning or Jim Crow Law enforcing leaders have ever been forcibly removed or executed even though americans have suffered similar fates thru this nations past of expansionism, slavery and racial hatred like the story of Emmitt Till a child. They see the war crimes, torture and murder as Bush states "Necessary to insure America's safety from terrorist" as long as it's not their family. These are in fact acts of Terrorism themselves so this is what you have...But remember God's law is Supreme and Judgement day is at hand. Look at our economy, the natural disasters we are facing and it's not hard to believe God is not happy with America.
Either the American People will learn the meaning of these events and Force Change or they will persist and things will get worse while Americans say, "Not Us, we haven't done Anything wrong, while we assist Isreal with billions annually while the apartheid in the occupied West Bank persists, while our Government ignores the Saudi Connection (10 Saudi nationals flying 9/11 planes), While N. Korea acquires and threatens us with Nuclear weapons, While human attrocities persists in Rowanda & Darfur. Americans need to become involved in Mankind and less involved in Selfishness to Truly understand the world around them and the Evil minions that act on their behalf not for their wellbeing but because of Selfish Ambition of the Rich and powerful here!. America resembles Rome in many ways and world history seems to be forgotten here even though History always seems to repeat itself for the Ignorant.

And my point is "so what"? It's not at all logically inconsistent that many Iraqis who are criticizing the way the Bush administration has bungled Iraq were at the same time thankful to see the last of Saddam's regime.

An allegiance to the old regime doesn't seem to explain how the shoethrower's act of disgust with Bush is resonating in Iraq.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/20081215144834440817.html

One of the things I don't get, is sure I can understand their discontent with the US trying to help them establish a democratic govt. Fair enough. However, the US got rid of their oppressive dictator who killed many many Iraqis and many even rejoiced when the regime came to an end.
The fact there are still pockets of militants, radical groups over there who were riding the wave of the richness of Saddam's regime in the past, and the fact they'd certainly rally around this man for resisting their enemy the US- all this still sums up to the possibility if not likely hood that this reporter may have been a sympathizer of the Saddam regime.
Look here: His own brother said he was a Baathist-
http://baghdadbureau.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/brother-is-proud-of-shoe-tossing-iraqi-journalist/

In fact, his hatred could have had more to do with the fact HE wanted to be the next dictator(oops president of Iraq) Read it.

Speculate all you will -- I was merely questioning the plausibility of the motive that darby was imputing to the guy. Seems much more likely that other concerns than fidelity to the former regime sparked his symbolic gesture of disgust at Bush.

oh, and Al Jazeera is organizing his special team to help out this reporter.

"Al Jazeera also reports that Saddam Hussein's former lawyer, Khalil al-Dulaimi, is organizing a team to defend Zeidi."

I'd agree. Regardless of desire for a democratic government (which still is quite a big question mark in Iraq, given the Sunni/Shiite/Kurd divides), it seems much more motivated by the deaths and destruction that we, with all good intentions, have brought to too many over there in the name of "spreading democracy."

I read Darbyhunt's link in her post. Something that really jumped out at me - "Among his many supporters, Saddam Hussein's former lawyer said on Tuesday he was forming a team to defend him. So far around 200 Iraqi and other lawyers, including Americans, have expressed willingness to defend the journalist for free,"
Well isn't that special? Some American lawyers willing to defend the Iraqi journalist for free in Iraqi court.
And Interface, you folks are the first to speculate on the motives of our President, but we should never do so to the likes of the shoe-throwing Iraqi.

Fair enough,but the hatred and resulting act of "offense" just doesn't seem like an act that is motivated by a people who want a democratic govt.
If they don't want the govt to change, what do they desire for their nation? A new leader a little bit nicer than Saddam Hussein? Maybe one leader who won't shoot quite as many people for protesting his dictatorship?
Guess I just don't know that answer.

Strikes me as more likely (based on his own words) that he was roundly condemning the invasion and occupation by the U.S. that has resulted in the deaths of thousands of Iraqi civilians. It's not necessary to make the logical leap that simply because he condemns the actions of the U.S. under Bush (and the cost in lives from those actions) that he supported the previous regime.

I was responding more to the speculation (my own speculation might I add) that since the man threw his shoes ( arab big time insult) at the Pres of the United States ( who is currently and has been involved in the restructuring of the entire govt structure of that man's country)
that he might have some issues with a foreign govt taking over and redirecting his country's course.
It may possible mean that he probably liked the way things were run before...his brother is being held by Iraqi authorities as it is. Maybe the regime still lingers in the hearts of many. I also read that many are protesting his incarceration right now too.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=HomePage&id=7b33089c-29bc-4240-8b4c-793a3c8bdc00&MatchID1=4764&TeamID1=4&TeamID2=26&MatchType1=2&SeriesID1=1204&PrimaryID=4764&Headline=Shoe+thrower+is+Arab+world's+new+folk+hero

This link also claims he detests the USA and that his closing comments were that " you killed the Iraq people"
Sounds either patriotic to the old regime or he is just s zealot who wanted attention brought to his hate of the USA.

apop... get over yourself

I haven't heard of anymore Kurds being gassed or Sadam "enemies" being tossed into a shredder ALIVE. You libs need to accept that Iraq and the world are a better place without this murderer!!

Are you kidding? What lives? What freedom?

Over a million Iraqis are DEAD. Millions more have been forced to leave Iraq and can't go back.

And the ones who are still there are dealing with a collapsed infrastructure and ongoing violence.

So what lives and what freedoms?

What gives you the impression that the journalist who criticized Bush was a supporter of the old regime? Curious assumption, and I doubt it holds much water.

And mrhistory - and what if some of those people in Vienna that wanted to be left alone in peace were Jewish? Saddam Hussein had his thumb on everything in Iraq, and his Bathe party controlled everything, including the lives of the people. If you didn't agree with them, nevermind - you'd be gone. People have very short memories, and dead people even shorter. Bush liberated the Iraqi people. There were lives lost, yes, it always happens in war, but the people there now have a chance to live their lives in freedom, and their children will also. That counts for much!

President Bush regards himself as a missionary for democracy, rather than president of the USA. He determined to free the Iraqis from their hated dictator whether they wanted our help or not. I can't even imagine the feelings of helplesness that now permeate the everyday lives of these people as they try to eke out a living under the conditions they face today. The shoe throwing incident was, fortunately, a non-lethal act of frustration. I assume that this demonstration will result in a severe penalty, just as it would here at home.
I thought that President Bush could have accomplished his goal without an invasion. However, VP Cheney now says that the invasion was necessary whether wmd's existed or not. I am surprized that he would make such a statement which seems to contradict that of the administation spokesperson.
I remember, as a young soldier, patroling post-war Vienna, seeing all the rubble of pro-longed shelling, and a destitute population. The residents had nothing to do with the rise of Hitler but were just as much victims of the war as anybody else. They just wanted to be left alone to live their lives in peace and quiet. That applies to most people wherever they live.

And there will always be lingering idealists of the old regime with a closet full of shoes.
I just wish we could get our boys out of Iraq- if things are truly democratic put their leadership and their military back into their positions of full authority.
If they aren't, then we are being lied to and will end up throwing more money and military back into that area for a decade.

I look at the shoe throwing as a sign of how far Iraq has progressed. Other than Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, what Arab head of government holds free-wheeling press conferences? President Mubarak of Egypt? Assad of Syria? The Saudi king? Qaddafi? If an Arab reporter had shoed any other leading Arab ruler during one of their staged events, he would've been fortunate to escape with his life.

The shoe thrower represents the past and no the Arab world does not hate President Bush. Bush deserved better than the indignity of having shoes flipped at him - a serious insult in the Arab world. But the incident's real message was: Mission accomplished, Bush succeeded and Iraq is transforming itself into a democratic state.

The war was a success. If this guy had thrown a shoe at Hussein, what odds would he have to live five seconds after the incident. It looks like this country gave these people a democracy, whether or not they beneft from this wondrous gift is up to them.

For the media to rejoice in this slight of our President is typical of them, and childish.

Yael, I kinda find your piece here to be offensive. What exactly do you mean, "arab-american"?
In my opinion there's no such thing. Nor, an african-american, or an asian american or a hispanic-american.
When a person leaves his or her country and comes here, he or she is saying "I don't want to be that anymore, I want to be american." We are all the same. Equal. No difference. On the same side. Just Americans.
Your vision only divides us and "United We Stand, Divided We Fall" are not just words but realities.
We need a real sense of nationalism returned to our great nation and to tear the barriers that have been built between us.

All I know is that President Bush has helped keep us safe for 7+ years from these Islamofacists, and for that I thank him very much.

Palin in 2012.

I suppose shoes are now on this Arab list for Santa.
I am sure he didn't retrieve them after the fact. ;)

Sorry, but I don't give a rat's a$$ what the Arab media think of Bush or any other American or Americans in general.

Yael, I don't believe you have ever referred to yourself as an Arab-American in your writing before. I'm guessing its a convenient way to defend the shoe-thrower. Pity you feel the need to do that.

I agree twas

I have to discount just about everything the Arab community says about Bush and the West. They can't run governments. They can't control terrorism (in their own countries) and and they allow the scourge of the earth to run amok. It will only get worse. Let me give you an example. What if, say American Christians were doing what Al Qaeda and radical Islam was doing? Don't you think our government would rain down on them and get them under control. No, they still allow schools (Wahhabi) where hate is spewed towards "Infidels". I have no use for most of the Arab governments. I have no use for Arab journalists. If they don't want to be invaded, stop allowing regimes to take control and creating threats to other countries.

This of course coming from one one of the co-captains of this sinking ship called the Kansas City Star!
Yes Yael, educate us about the failure of leadership.
While you're at it make light the assault of the President of the United States by the citizen of a foreign nation.
No big deal right Mr. Citizen?