Romney's tax returns to add fuel to Occupy Movement
Lewis DiuguidMitt Romney probably didn’t hope to add fuel to the Occupy Wall Street Movement fire, but he did.
As a fine member of the wealthiest 1 percent investor class, he admitted that his tax rate is close to 15 percent. That compares well to most Americans paying up to 35 percent on income from wages and salaries.
The Occupy Wall Street Movement has railed against the unfairness of the richest Americans paying a lower rate in taxes than the majority of others, struggling to make ends meet on salaries that have not kept up with rising prices for food, fuel, transportation, housing, education, health care and other expenses. People in the Occupy Movement protest against tax breaks for the wealthy, high unemployment, the erosion of the middle class, home foreclosures and college students being saddled with debt.
The American dream is being brutally assaulted, and the beat down is nowhere near finished. Romney’s tax returns will give the Occupy Movement the fuel it needs and show how the Republican Party is very close to elevating one of the 1 percenters to ensure that the protected class remains protected.
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Brandon Lewis
3 months, 4 weeks agoWhere are Romney’s tax returns and why won’t he show them? If he has nothing to hide he would release them.
What is it that he dosen’t want the American people to see? His income, taxes paid, the loop holes. Let me see!
Brandon Lewis
3 months, 4 weeks agoI’m just following protocol. Past presidential candidates release their tax returns with no problem. Dem and repubs. So I ask again, what is he hiding?
College transcripts? Oh yeah, like the BIRTH certificate issue?
Kent Mueller
3 months, 4 weeks agoRomney isn’t a nominee for the presidency, at least yet. Many candidates have waited to release their tax returns. The nomination of the Republican Party’s nominee for the presidential election is a matter for the Republican Party. They can use whatever process they want. It’s their party. The same goes for any other party. So, non-Republicans have no say in this matter. They can voice their opinion, but they have no standing on this issue.
Mark Hastert
3 months, 4 weeks agoLots of venting going on today. Take some Metamicil.
Let me ask a more fundamental quesiton. Why does a rich guy who doesn’t work pay a lower rate than the rest of us that get out and earn a living every day? Why am I paying twice the rate Romney or Warren Buffet pay? It’s fundamentally anti american to penalize people who work in favor of those who don’t. I’ve heard the BS that investment is supposed to help grow the economy but how does that help any more than wage earners driving the economy with consumer spending? Looks to me like a scam the unemployed lazy rich have pulled on the industrious working middle and working classes.
Mark Hastert
3 months, 4 weeks ago“What is it that he dosen’t want the American people to see?”
Read more here: http://voices.kansascity.com/entries/romneys-tax-returns-add-fuel-occupy-movement/#storylink=cpy
He doesn’t want people to see how incredibly crazy rich he is. He’s a rich patrician who is the son of another rich patrician who hasn’t worked in more than a decade yet still earns a fortune from his Wall St investments. He’s campaigning is a state with high unemployment and he fears that people who can’t find work and who are struggling to keep their homes and families might just resent him. He’s absolutely right.
What does he fear? That one day the poor people will have nothing left to eat but….rich people.
Steven Fetter
66223
3 months, 4 weeks agoThe “unemployed lazy rich” that earn their income by putting their money at risk for a possible return on their investment are being highly sought after by the current administration and every state and local government in the country.
Got a green initiative? Offer tax breaks to the producer, consumer, and every middle man in between. Obama himself has made the argument we must incent preferred businesses for growth. Like it or not, if there is no reward for taking risk, businesses and individuals will not invest.
The Occupiers would have successful investors pay more taxes and the government make investments. The Democrats would have everyone pay more taxes and then bail out the unsuccessful investors, (if they went down with union labor). Why not just have everyone pay the 15% rate and call it good.
Mark Hastert
3 months, 4 weeks agoWhy not just have everyone pay the 15% rate and call it good.”
Read more here: http://voices.kansascity.com/entries/romneys-tax-returns-add-fuel-occupy-movement/#storylink=cpy
I agree in the sense that income is income is income and it should be taxed like mine or yours or every other person who earns an income but a flat tax? Not the way to go. Let the lazy unemployed patricians like Romney et. al. pay up like a working American.
Kent Mueller
3 months, 4 weeks agoMark, you are wrong. All income is not the same. There are many differences. For instance, dividend income is income that has been taxed at least once already. If it wasn’t taxed at the corporate level despite there being income, then that is a different issue. The same is true for capital gains. The investment was made with after tax money, therefore, any gain should not be ordinary income.
And besides, you are pulling the oldest trick in the book. You take one example (Romney’s tax rate). By the way, is that his effective rate or his marginal rate? That is an important distinction to make. And then you somehow assign that one example to the entire group that you are denigrating. Therein lies your falsehood. Not only do upper income taxpayers pay more dollars in taxes than lower income brackets, they also pay higher effective and marginal rates. That is very different than the numbers you used to scare and rile people as you play class warfare. It is fair to debate if the difference in the higher taxes the wealthy pay is sufficiently high, but it is disingenuous at best to say they pay at a lower rate.
Kent Mueller
3 months, 4 weeks agoAnd I must say that it is amusing to imagine “add fuel to Occupy Movement”.
The numbers were never very large and they seem to be dwindling. So the effect will be similar to the proverbial flatulence in a wind storm.
Steven Fetter
66223
3 months, 4 weeks agoLook in today’s Star about another lazy, unemployed, rich guy that bankrolled the Park Place development in Leawood. His financing has allowed a $270,000,000 project of hotels, shops, restaurants, offices and condos to go forward despite banks and outside investment drying up after 2008. He risked a great deal of his net worth in uncertain times with similar projects failing all over town. The result was many jobs were created (or saved in Obama speak) in the construction and retail sectors.
It used to be that people of vision, willing to put up their own money, were admired.
Mark Hastert
3 months, 4 weeks ago“All income is not the same. There are many differences. For instance, dividend income is income that has been taxed at least once already. If it wasn’t taxed at the corporate level despite there being income, then that is a different issue. The same is true for capital gains.”
Read more here: http://voices.kansascity.com/entries/romneys-tax-returns-add-fuel-occupy-movement/#storylink=cpy
What??!!! Are the rich paid with different dollars than me? I knew it!
I’m familiar with the rationalization but it’s a convoluted excuse to fashioned by the rich for the benefit of the rich. (e.g. Thurston Howell III) It’s a policy that devalues work in favor of sloth. Maybe we can get all those unemployed rich guys jobs as part time janitors so that they can be exposed to a work ethic.
Kent Mueller
3 months, 4 weeks agoMark, I thought you said you understood the “rationalization”. The money had already been taxed at least once before. But, it’s a fair debate to debate the level of taxation on interest, dividends and cap gains.
And no, the rich aren’t paid with different dollars than you. They are paid with MORE dollars than you, based on economic value. It’s not a perfect system, but it pretty much rewards work and risk well.
Mark, why would you imply the rich pay taxes at lower rates than the middle and lower class? And it’s disingenuous to pick a relative few as examples. The rich, as a group, pay higher taxes in both dollars and rate (effective and marginal). Why did you say otherwise?
Mark Hastert
3 months, 4 weeks ago“the rich pay taxes at lower rates than the middle and lower class?” Read more here: http://voices.kansascity.com/entries/romneys-tax-returns-add-fuel-occupy-movement/#storylink=cpy Gee, I guess it’s because I can read and it’s because it’s what Romney said, and it’s because ANY person deriveing a significant amount of their income from long term capital gains is taxed at te lower rate not just a select few. I’m saying that they pay more tax than me, just a lower rate. And what’s the economic value in being the idle rich anyway? Those part time janitor jobs are still waiting for them. Getting their hands dirty might do them good.
But tutt tutt my good fellow do be a chap and go fetch my Rolls but mind you I just had it waxed. Try not to smudge the paint!
JR Beillenhouser
3 months, 4 weeks agohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJD8pZiRIzs
Best Explanation of it yet.
Mark Hastert
3 months, 4 weeks ago“The rich, as a group, pay higher taxes in both dollars and rate (effective and marginal).”
Read more here: http://voices.kansascity.com/entries/romneys-tax-returns-add-fuel-occupy-movement/#storylink=cpy
The top 400 tax filers in the US pay an effectie rate of 17.6% Only 6% of those filers pay at the top marginal rate (boy do those guys need new accountants). That data is available from several sources. Even with Wiki and Google domwn today anybody ought to be able find it.
Consumer spending, the bulk of which comes from we great unwashed, accounts for about 2/3rd of GDP. I’d say that we worker bees are every bit as important or more than the patrician investor class. So I’ll say again, the system unfairly devalues work. That doesn’t sound very American to me.
Now, where did I put Lovie’s tiara? Oh there it is in the back seat of the Stutz.
Mark Hastert
3 months, 4 weeks agoGood news worker bees. Warren Buffet has made his first matching contribution to Republican congressman Scott Rigell of Virginia in voluntary contributions to the tresury to pay down the debt. C’mon, who’ll be next? What patriot will stand up for America?!! I’ll make a contribution on a proportional basis to Warren’s income. By my rough calculations I’d be chipping in about $50 give or take. Who’s with me? I’ll personally come by and pick up your checks.
But back to Mitt and his 15%. Don’t get me wrong, I like Mitt. If there’s a chance we’ll have a “Republican” in the White house Mitt’s my favorite. He’s so much more malleable than the others. But Mitt’s a One-percenter and in this climate it’s gonna be a tough sell. That’s why he’s reluctant to release his taxes until after he has the nomination sewed up.
James Harrison
3 months, 4 weeks agoI could care less what Romney’s tax “rate” is. The fact is that he no doubt pays 50 to 100 times as much tax to the IRS than does the average US tax payer and a thousand times more than those vagrant “Occupiers”, most of who wouldn’t know real work if it slapped them upside the head. Any taxpayer who does pay into the 35% rate is doing fairly well and nobody pays that high an effective rate!
James Harrison
3 months, 4 weeks agoMitt surely does what EVERY tax paying American does. Whether one uses tax software like Turbo Tax or hires a professional accounting firm, the goal is always to pay the minimum amount of tax legally due. HELLO! The lame stream media just wants the narrative to change from the millions still unemployed and our 16.4 trillion dollar debt
Kent Mueller
3 months, 4 weeks agoMark, why do you keep saying the upper income class pays at a lower rate? They don’t. They pay more in actual dollars and they pay at a higher rate. Sure, some pay at a lower rate, those who have income concentrated in dividend and capital gains.
And you want to increase capital gains taxes? Why? If we as a country want less of something, we tax it. That is one of the central points of the tobacco and alcohol taxes. It is also the entire point of tariffs, which are taxes. Capital gains are the result of capital flowing through our capitalist system. Why do you want less capital in our economy?
Mark Hastert
3 months, 4 weeks agoApparently some of our colleagues are confused about the difference between the rich’s tax RATE and what they pay in actual DOLLARS. Here’s where it get tricky so try to follow me. The Average tatx RATE paid by the top 400 filers is about 17.6%, that’s about 40% lower than the RATE I and many Americans pay. Of course thay pay more is actual DOLLARS because 17.6% of a bazillion is a lot of DOLLARS! So indeed the rich pay more but at a lower rate. I hope that clears it up.
Do I think that capital gains should be taxed as ordinary income? Duh, yes! I’ve read all the rationalizations for the giveaway but it’s all hooey. Consumer spending (fueled mostly by us worker bees out there pollenizing the economy) is far more influential than the queen bees that sit around the hive watching the honey accumulate. Consumer spending is about 66% of GDP so why do us worker bees pay a higher rate? ‘Cause we can’t afford to by a Congressman.
Now, Wiki and Google are both back on line today so you guys can look all this stuff up and clear away any lingering confusion. I do appreciate the opportunity to get this message out there again.
Kent Mueller
3 months, 4 weeks agoMark, Mark, Mark. I see that you understand that the best way to deceive with numbers and percentages is to simply change the base. You talk about the 1 percenters, and then you quote a rate applicable to only the top 400 filers. Nice try to change the base to prove your point, but I caught you.
With 400 being such a small sample, it is similar to pointing to a single return and saying that is representative of the group. Of course, it is not.
So, once people wend their way through your class warfare verbiage of bees, they find that your message is simply to tax the rich because you want to.
So, no, I am not confused about dollars and rates like you insinuated. I was quite clear in my statement, you just chose to try to deceive by changing your base. Gotcha.
Kent Mueller
3 months, 4 weeks agoMark….you should thank Kevin for his information. I checked the source document out, and yes, the source is none other than the IRS.
Mark, you said the 17.6% is about 40% less than what you and “many Americans” pay. A little quick math tells me that you just said that you and “many Americans” pay about 29%. Well, the IRS data shows that about 97% of filers pay 11.9% or less. So, I guess “many” in your world is somewhere less than 3%. Go figure.
I can think of three possibilities just off the top of my head. One, if you are doing your own taxes, maybe you should consider someone like H&R Block. Just sayin. Or, Two, you just haven’t told us that you are one of those dreaded 3 percenters. Are you? Or, Three, the data you espoused wasn’t even close to reality.
Phil Cardarella
3 months, 4 weeks agoFYI, Mittens pays taxes at a lower rate than the QUEEN OF ENGLAND! (The Queen, as sovereign, cannot be taxed by law, but has voluntarily paid taxes on her income at the same rate as her subjects — which can reach 50%.)
Philip Boyer
3 months, 4 weeks agoWho is the last POTUS that wasn’t a “1%” dude? How many poor people create jobs? As this is still a capitalist country, its supposed to be ok to profit from your investments. Seems to me you’d have to be a world class loser to begrudge someone elses success.
Mark Hastert
3 months, 4 weeks agoWell it’s clear our colleagues aren’t of a mind to listen to me so let me refer any interested in reading up on the subject to the two Op/Ed pieces in todays NY Times.
I think if Kevin and Kent will re-read my posts they’ll see that I always referred to the cited statistics for the 400 wealthiest tax payers, never the 1%. I did call Romney a 1%er which he is. If they would like to do some research on the 1% effective rates I’m confident that it will bear me out.
and yes I work for a living and pay a higher rate than does Romney, the top 400, and I’m certain certain the 1%.
Let me point out again that they have avoided the real question which is, what makes capital gains any more special than the income people earn? I’ll acknowledge that it’s different but not deserving of special treatment. Consumer spending is far more important to the economy and consumer spending is driven by the middle and lower classes not the 1% or the top 400 filers.
We Americans claim to respect hard work but or tax code does not. (as well as some posting here)
Kent Mueller
3 months, 4 weeks agoMark, you didn’t even read the IRS report, did you. You couldn’t have read it and still write what you do. Or, maybe you could, I don’t really know anymore.
And if you reread what you wrote you will see your admission that you didn’t know what you were writing about. You said you are “confident” that your statement would be true, if only someone would do the research. You know? The captain of that cruise ship off Italy was confident everything would be OK, too. Mark, the IRS numbers show you to be wrong.
And Mark, I’m holding you personally responsible for this bruise I just got. Man, oh man. I hit the floor pretty hard from laughing so hard. Your source documents are now op/ed pieces from the NYT? The NYT’s front page is bad enough, but their op/ed section? That bruise is your fault, Mark, but hey, the laugh felt good.
Gary Hoffman
3 months, 3 weeks agoThis article explains it pretty well:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/romneys-effective-tax-rate-lower-222600731.html
As far as I am aware, neither Romney nor Obama paid a cent more nor a cent less than they had to. Just like nearly all of the rest of us.