Kobach wins with Arizona immigration ruling
Yael T. AbouhalkahThe U.S. Supreme Court struck down most of Arizona’s harsh immigration law today.
But Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach, who helped write the law, still will be able to claim victory.
That’s because the court upheld the ability of law enforcement to check the immigration status - by requiring people to “show their papers” - in certain circumstances.
So while much of the media will, correctly, call the ruling an overall defeat for punitive and state-led anti-immigration legislation, have no doubt:
Kobach and others will trumpet the notion that allowing part of the law to go forward is a huge victory for them.
They are correct, because it will give officials in other states the notion they, too, can go ahead with similar laws.
(Here’s analysis by National Conference of State Legislatures on effects of ruling.)
In essence, just having part of the law upheld was a big loss for the Obama administration and others who had hoped the Supreme Court would overturn the entire law.
As for Kobach, if you think being secretary of state is his real job, just go visit his personal website, which is full of immigration-related material. It’s clear that his national get-tough reputation on immigration is his real job in life.
Kent Mueller
11 months, 3 weeks agoYael, you had six tries to get it right, and you whiffed all six times.
Six times you wrote about immigration, when the topic is illegal immigration. Those are two very different things. I’m pretty sure both the ancestors of mine and yours went the immigration route to enable you and me to be American citizens today. I think you would agree that it is a beautiful thing.
But, no matter how many times you misstate the topic, it doesn’t change the topic. The issue is legal vs illegal immigration. You were wrong six out of six times.
Mark Hastert
11 months, 3 weeks agoGee, I rather doubt that Kobach sees this as much of a win. Only one toothless provision not struck down?
Phil Cardarella
11 months, 3 weeks agoDear Kent:
I suspect that the laws have become a bit more restrictive since your (and my) ancestors slid across the border. For example, service in the military AUTOMATICALLY earned citizenship.
Face it: This fight is not about immigration. The GOP wants to have lots of workers — especially those they can use to undercut local labor when they choose, then threaten with shipping off if they get uppity. What they really fear is those educated, American-in-all-but-birth folks getting CITIZENSHIP and the VOTE! If you are educated, non-white or non-male, you vote Democratic.
By the way, let us not forget that we stole 1/2 of Mexico in 1836-1848. We are a bit like tha bank robber who complains that one of the bank depositers is trying to get a bit of his money back. Of course, if you are a big enough bank robber (Wall Street Supersize) the GOP is on your side.
Robert Copher
11 months, 3 weeks agoIt seems the socialist perspective has taken over all aspects of government. I am hoping that they stopped short of allowing “show me your papers” checkpoints. Otherwise, just start setting up the border patrols on every state line, cause thats the only way you’re going to keep “everyone” safe and “everyone” obeying the local language ordinance, or religious freedom, or hiring laws. The SCOTUS seems very short sited.
Mark Hastert
11 months, 3 weeks agoOne would rather hope that he would bring a little insight to the legal aspects of the decision. Instead we get emotion laden whining.
Read more here: http://voices.kansascity.com/entries/kobach-wins-arizona-immigration-ruling/#storylink=cpyA
Ah….er…. Chuck I’m having trouble finding any insight in that comment. At least The Cardarella comment was on topic. Yours is on Cardarella.
I think that his point is that a Mexicans claim to their ancestral lands of Arizona or New Mexico has standing. Also that the GOP position is hypocritical and Xenophobic.
Kent Mueller
11 months, 3 weeks agoPhil, what liberal-speak. Please speak for your own family and not mine when you use phrases like “slid across the border”. I can assure you that my ancestors did not slide. All was legal by the laws of the country of which they wanted to become citizens.
And you are right, it isn’t about immigration, it’s about illegal immigration. You made the same mistake Yael made six times. And if you are going to make a charge of racism (uppity?), then be a man and come out make your false accusation.
And please, Phil, don’t assume we don’t know history. First of all, while Polk was provocative in his placement of troops, Mexico attacked first despite being warned by France and Spain not to attack. (Interestingly, Polk was a pro-slavery Democrat, lol!!)That war took place in 1947. Also, what you failed to note was what occurred at the early part of your time range. The Texas Revolution occurred in 1935. Texas wasn’t the only territory to revolt. There were several who were in revolt due to Santa Ana’s abolishment of the Mexican Constitution. So, Phil, please don’t say we just robbed Mexico of its land, someone who doesn’t know better might believe you.
And your attempt to equate Wall Street malfeasance with Republicans is not only tiresome, but it’s a very old canard.
Kent Mueller
11 months, 3 weeks agoMark……yeah, and while we are at it, we need to give Manhattan back to the Indians. New England goes back to England…or maybe back to the Indians. Dunno. We can just un-teather Hawaii and let it become a sovereign nation. And what do you think, was Seward an underhanded type of guy? I guess some would assume so if he was an American. I guess that sends Alaska back to Russia.
Any others to soothe your conscience?
JR Beillenhouser
11 months, 3 weeks agoBy a wise person on another board:
“Pretty sad when our government pits itself against the citizens of our country in favor of foreigners.”
All of you in favor of this, I suggest that do that ole “try life in another person’s shoes” stuff liberals like to talk about, and move to Arizona.
More illegals are going to flock there. And legitimate criminals are going to picked up and then just released. Some of these people are going to be cartel members. Crime is going to continue to go through the roof.
Johnathon Busby
11 months, 3 weeks agoNo need to move to Arizona, I’ve had plenty of first hand experience right here in Mo getting to know illegal aliens one on one.
All of us who aren’t native american by blood are the offspring of people who took the land from those who already had it. “Slid across the border” is or course inflammatory, but it’s the case that the US was taken from those who had it before via orchestrated genocide.
In short, there’s no ethical support for throwing them out. Partially because we live on land our ancestors stole in the first place, and partially because it’s indecent to toss out hard working, decent folk (which most are, on average, once you actually get to know them as people).
JR Beillenhouser
11 months, 3 weeks agoNo Johnathon, you don’t have an idea what is occuring in Arizona. And I guess you failed to read Kent’s comment above. What a strawman by the way, but since you and all your lib buddies are saying it today, I’m guessing it appears in nearly every post on the Daily Kos.
As I noted the other day in a comment. You have to be a complete idiot to just let people come into the country without knowing who there are. Are many hard working good people? Sure they are, however, they have broken the law. And a percentage of them are not good people. You can look in our prison system to see that.
Ethical support? You’ve got to be kidding. Again, this is a voting issue and the Dems are trying to line their pockets with illegal votes. Or is it now ok to not enforce the voting laws, because the imperial president is no longer interested in doing so. I thought he swore to uphold the entire constitution, not just the parts that directly benefit him.
Kent Mueller
11 months, 3 weeks agoJohnathon, and your solution is to have open borders to where there is absolutely no control over who enters this country? Surely, you don’t suggest giving the country to others. We may disagree on some things but I don’t see you as that radical.
And this isn’t directed to you, Johnathon, because I don’t think it fits you.
To all of you people who ridicules someone for wanting Social Security reform, but yet cashes SS checks. Be very careful who you call a hypocrite. For, if you think there is shame in living here, as an American, on stolen land, then you need to leave the country now, or following your SS logic, you are a hypocrite.
Robert Copher
11 months, 3 weeks agoYael, I’m hoping your just pulling their leg. The ruling say citizen status may be questioned if it becomes in question IN THE INVESTIGATION OF ANOTHER CRIME. If Kobak and buddies thinks thats a victory in the war on illegal immigration, Good.
More level heads will prevail. Its hard not sense the intensity of many of us.
Those of you who want to start rounding up “illegals”
Which ones do you think they are? Any mexican food resturants going to close? Any work not going to get done? Careful, thats a trick question. Seriously which ones are you running into that you want out of your way for being “criminal”.
Just wondering. THe ruling said almost all of Kobaks laws are unconstitutional. Recognize narcisism when you see it.
Robert Copher
11 months, 3 weeks agoI withdraw my question. Those concerned may just be concerned about a policy and its respect. Mine is that our policy is flawed. Causeing more problem than not.
Johnathon Busby
11 months, 3 weeks agoJR, why, yes, I do know what’s happening in Arizona. And I did read earlier comments. I’ve no idea which of my comments you found to be a “straw man”, but I frequent Drudge far more than Daily Kos.
“You’d have to be an idiot to let people into the country without knowing who they are.” That’s fine, I don’t mind documentation, I mind deportation. No problem. “…however, they have broken the law.” Bothers me not one bit, so long as they didn’t break any of the ones that actually matter.
You accuse dems of wanting extra illegal votes, but I don’t see evidence for that, only frequent allegation. Meanwhile, I do see the GOP suppressing the vote at every opportunity.
Kent, I’m not advocating surrender of the legal and economic body of the US to anyone else, but I am saying that throwing people out and treating them as if they’re horrible people just for being here is hypocrisy, given how we came to possess this authority and dominion.
Kent Mueller
11 months, 3 weeks agoJohnathon. There are two issues that are very different, but they always seem to get muddled and results in everyone screaming. The two issues are, 1) We have tens of millions of people who have been allowed to enter this country illegally over the last few decades and 2) We continue to allow hundreds of thousands of people to enter this country illegally every year.
Those are two different issues, especially when it comes to solutions.
When someone wants to prevent people from entering this country illegally it does not mean they want to round up 12 year old school girls and toss them across the Rio Grande. Figuring out how to deal with the illegal people already here only gets more difficult as we allow more to enter.
It makes no sense to allow people to enter a sovereign country at will. That doesn’t happen anywhere else. We need to stop the illegal inflow. Only then do we have any hope of sitting down and determining the best solution for those who are already here.
Michael Middleton
11 months, 3 weeks agoOk, Mr. Busby, since you are the arbiter of which laws matter, and which ones do not, what laws do I get to break? Identity theft, social security fraud, tax evasion, smuggling, trespassing, welfare fraud, what about those? Because those are the laws that many illegal immigrants break (other than their unlawful presence) with impunity. I know, how about I get to break the mandate requiring me to buy health insurance under Obamacare (assuming it survives the Supreme Court)? We are either a nation of laws or we are not. Every nation in the world has a right to protect its sovereignty and a right to decide who should be able to enter the country and who should not. The UK barred right wing nut job Michael Savage (aka Michael Weiner) from entering their country strictly on the basis of his political positions. I hear no outrage for that. When you say you see no evidence of dems wanting illegal votes, I can’t help you. If you don’t see the blatant pandering to the illegal immigrant community, the promises of amnesty, and fighting against the common sense notion of requiring a registered voter to show verification of his or her identity, then nothing I can show you will matter, because there is none so blind as one who will not see. As far voter suppression goes, I will never understand how asking for identification qualifies as suppression. The constitution says you have to be 18 in order to vote. So isn’t that suppressing the vote of minors everywhere? As far as “treating people as if they are horrible just for being here” that’s crap. You don’t treat a burgler the same as a houseguest (well maybe you do, but most people with common sense and any sense of self-preservation make the distinction). I don’t blame the people of Mexico and other countries south of there wanting to leave behind their broken, anarchic, drug war ravaged countries. But to allow them to come here and stay here does nothing to help their countries, and places an unfair, and unsustainable burden on ours.
JR Beillenhouser
11 months, 3 weeks agoJohnathon - you mean wanting a voter id. Your voter suppression argument is bs. The courts have ruled over and over that the efforts to require id are legal. The imperial one, who like you, determines which laws matter and which ones don’t, uses Holder to go after states with legal voter id acts.
Even the Democratic convention is requiring a photo id to enter it.
So in your mind, it is ok to not enforce laws that don’t matter. Well if that is the new standard, don’t be surprised when the republicans use it against you when they win the presidency next time.
That is the real problem though, isn’t it? Conservatives see these power grabs for what they are. Progressives are fine with them as long as it supports their positions.
Johnathon Busby
11 months, 3 weeks agoAfternoon, gentlemen. Points in order they were read:
Kent, I just don’t feel a compelling need to keep them out as a mass. Nasty individuals, yeah, sure. But the rest are just producers/consumers like the rest of us. They should pay the same tax burden as a citizen, of course.
“Which laws matter and don’t?”
For the purpose of whom I would and wouldn’t want in the US? If you’d sit at the same table with someone, knowing what they’ve done (say, stole their cable), then they’re fine. Walking 200 miles over a desert just to get work suggests good character, and strong work ethic.
“The UK barred M Savage.”
This isn’t the UK. Also, M Savage is one individual, not an aggregate group.
*on the topic of voter suppression by the GOP:
It was off topic and I shouldn’t have brought it up, my fault.
“You don’t treat a burglar like a houseguest.”
The illegals haven’t stolen anything from me; instead, they’ve provided me with quality service at reasonable prices.
“Allowing them to come here doesn’t help their countries.”
I’m not out to help Mexico, I’m out to help people. Many of whom happen to be from Mexico in this case.
“Conservatives see power grabs for what they are.”
The power of the executive has been expanding for decades now, including under Bush. Conservatives are not immune to the lure of power.
JR Beillenhouser
11 months, 3 weeks ago“Walking 200 miles over a desert just to get work suggests good character, and strong work ethic.”
It means no such thing. Your statement is correct if no criminals are walking 200 miles over the desert. Statistics point out that many criminals or those that end up in prisons for crimes committed in the US took that walk as well.
“The illegals haven’t stolen anything from me; instead, they’ve provided me with quality service at reasonable prices.”
Welfare systems are designed for people who are legally entitled to get them. Some would call it stealing, others may not, however, it is clear that they are taking money from taxpayers that they are not entitled to. That hurts all of us.
“The power of the executive has been expanding for decades now, including under Bush. Conservatives are not immune to the lure of power.”
True, but never has there been a power grab like this administration. So your argument is, the other guy did it, mine can too. I see it more as there has been some in the past, this administration takes it to a new level. Even Jimmy Carter, in his op-ed can see the difference with this administration and others.
Johnathon Busby
11 months, 3 weeks agoWhere I’ve used quotes below, they’re paraphrased, not directly quoted. For clarity.
“Getting here doesn’t show a strong work ethic; scumbags make the journey, too.”
Yes, but I already said I’m ok with keeping out individual lowlifes. Just not the whole population. You can’t treat them all like gang members.
“Illegal aliens steal via welfare.”
I’ve never known an illegal alien on welfare. Heck, they even avoid hospitals and doctors, unless they’re actually dying.
“The orchestrated genocide provided you with the freedom to voice your opinion.”
Yes, it did; but it remains genocide, and remains a deterrent to the ethical claim that we somehow have a right to throw people out of this land due to an inhereted sense of ownership. Also, please note that you object to what I said, not the content itself. That is… you’re not arguing that our ancestors committed orchestrated genocide, you’re simply bothered I pointed it out in the way I did.
“And if we hadn’t stolen Arizona they would be leaving not trying to get in.”
You’ll notice I don’t cry much for Mexico losing Texas and Arizona to us; I’m not hawking any sort of virtue or efficiency with regards to the Mexican gov’t. I’m simply saying it’s wrong to toss people out based on birth, given the highly tenuous nature of the history of the region.
JR Beillenhouser
11 months, 3 weeks agoJohnathon is an extremely naive person. You really don’t have a clue. Please do yourself a favor and save up some money and do some travelling outside of this country. I suggest southwest asia. You will see poverty like you cannot imagine. If you stay long enough, you’ll see why. Their governments are corrupt and often they have group think.
According to your logic, the US is an evil country because it was formed the exact same way as every other country in the world. If your standard is that a country has no right to exists because it took it’s territory from others, where exactly do you think you can live and not feel that way? By that logic, the only place you should feel comfortable living in is Antarctica.
Additionally, what other country has open borders like we do. Western Europe has finally figured it out. I though progressive use Western Europe as their model. Let’s look at the immigration policy of Mexico. Do a little research about Mexico’s southern border.
Unfortunately, your line of thinking is what is going to destroy the greatest country in the history of the world. Like an spoiled child, progressives don’t really understand what they have and hope to destroy it for something that can never be achieved.
Glen Enloe
11 months, 3 weeks agoJudge Scalia’s dissent was the only totally correct perspective on this SCOTUS ruling. All the points should have been upheld. Spare me the human interest sob stories. The law is the law & our outlaw President doesn’t want to enforce it. Obama now pouts because he didn’t win every point. I wouldn’t blame Arizona if they secede from our hostile government. And also spare me the “I want to see your papers” cracks. As long as we don’t protect our borders, we have no country.
Johnathon Busby
11 months, 3 weeks ago@Pappy; You don’t know me, don’t pretend you do. I’m honestly citing what I’ve seen and experienced.
Jr: I don’t think much more of your wisdom than you do of mine, so that’s fair. I didn’t say the US is evil, I said we have no grounds to keep decent people out who just want a job. Also, please don’t compare us to Mexico or western Europe; it’s not enough to be as good as them, we have a duty to actually get it right.
Glen: You are so spared. But those “sob stories” are motivation enough for me to give people a bare chance at a life here.
Johnathon Busby
11 months, 3 weeks agoYou don’t know me, and I don’t have a type. I’m just trying to give people an opportunity, not whip myself (or you). If you feel like their opportunity is better than yours… why? What makes you think under-educated and untrained immigrants are on your level?
Thank you for calling me young, though. Always nice to hear.